Reality: he needs her more than she needs him.

Obama has won the democratic nomination. He's a fine candidate who deserves the support of all democrats. But the fact is he's won the nomination by the narrowest of margins. Even the last couple of results from SD and Montana were not exactly a blow out for him and highlighted a paradox. He's won the nomination but in the precise set of circumstances it's created he needs her more than she needs him. In the normal course of events in primary elections the losers who invariably are beaten by substantial margins usually just disappear back into their old jobs or situations and life goes on. That is simply not the case as things now stands. Basically if she want's the VP spot he's got to offer it to her or seriously jeopardize his chances in the general. All those of his supporters who say this is not a problem, that all the Clinton supporters will see the error of their ways and end up voting for him should remember 1968 when HHH lost largely because the Gene Macarthy supporters wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole. I suspect few posters here remember that but it crippled the Democratic party.    

I'd say she's well aware of this situation and so is he which is why we're having this elaborate kabuki dance while they maneuver for position. Ignore the media's interpretation of all this. They have usually got an agenda. The simple fact is that the worst that can happen to her is that she can just return to the senate and go thru the motions while leaving him to paddle his own canoe. For him he could lose the election if he goes into it with a divided party. I suspect this penny is going to drop in the next few days so watch what these guy do not what they, or their staffs, or least of all the media say.    



Display:


Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (2.00 / 1)

You are correct, but if that's what's going on, it doesn't make it right or do her any favors. You realize that she's alienating everyone who ISN'T a diehard Hillary fan, right? We're talking Democrats, but especially Independents.

Not only that, she's taunting him. If she continues, he actually cannot afford to concede a single vote to her. She's going to find it awfully hard to win another election unless she is being as gracious as he has been.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:11:00 AM EST

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)

I sincerely hope that isn't what is going on here. I didn't get that impression last night, and it would be a shame, because it would reinforce every negative feeling about Hillary Clinton that I have.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:12:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He declared that he has won... (none / 0)

He didn't win, he SAID that he had won.

:O


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:17:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He declared that he has won... (none / 0)

No, he pretty much won. Yes, she could still win in Denver, but that was true whether or not she suspended her campaign.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:21:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He declared that he has won... (none / 0)

just like john edwards who suspended his campaign.  delegates could vote for him as a compromise candidate if clinton goes crazy.


by pholkhero on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:35:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (2.00 / 2)

She is taunting. And if he put her on the ticket now, after the Lanny Davis and Bob Johnson efforts to get it for her, he would just look weak.

Have you ever seen a potential vp do something like this? It's really unprecedented and aimed at undermining Obama. I think it's part of the 2012 strategy advocated by a certain blogger whose name starts with A.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:12:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He is afraid of her constituency... (none / 0)

That 60 million people with chronic illness, around one third of whom don't have healthcare coverage. His health plan leaves out around 60 million Americans, around one fifth of us. Those with chronic conditions, he says are just too expensive to cover.


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:19:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He is afraid of her constituency... (2.00 / 1)

The health plan... you mean the one he seemed to pretty much offer directly to her yesterday?


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:22:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll believe that when I see it... (none / 0)

"Seemed" seems to always ESPECIALLY represent a large difference with Obama from "did"

They have elevated false rumors to an art.


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:32:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll believe that when I see it... (2.00 / 1)

And given the speech last night, what do you consider her art? Slash and burn?


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:40:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He is afraid of her constituency... (2.00 / 1)

Wow, that phony number keeps going up... it used to be 17 million!

A number that pretty much was just made up...

BTW, I'm one of those people that are too expensive to insure...  I don't buy that number in any way, any how.


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:46:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)

Did JFK look weak putting LBJ on the ticket. No it strengthened the ticket so he made a sound political decision. Clinton would strengthen the ticket, her absence certainly weakens it, so it would be a wise political decision.


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:22:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)

It certainly would make him look weak right now. There was just an entire diary written about how weak it made him appear.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:27:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

he IS weak.. (none / 0)

I mean, by several measures, he's behind in popular votes.

he isn't even winning the election, really.

If that isn't weak, what is?


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:33:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he IS weak.. (none / 0)

Being behind him.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:38:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he IS weak.. (2.00 / 2)

you say by several measures and then only cite one metric (and a flawed count at that).

please, go to HRC's site and tell her to keep fighting.  after this primary performance, i hope we  see a primary challenge or 2 for clinton.  at least then solis doyle would have an excuse for spending money like a sailor on shore leave.


by pholkhero on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:38:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not sure (2.00 / 1)

If this is inanity, insanity, or both.

"he isn't even winning the election, really."

Uhm, his victory has been a foregone conclusion since early February.


by otis29 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:43:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he IS weak.. (none / 0)

Doesnt there come a time where you think it makes sense to say what is right about OUR Democratic nominee rather then what is wrong.

He has won by the ONLY measure that counts. (This is a contest of delegates.)  And although these delegates have yet to vote to make it official, these other "measures" mean nothing at this point.

So you can either support OUR candidate or not... but what makes him weaker is the lack of support he gets from Clinton and her supporters.  If you dont have anything good to say then STFU.


by herenow on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:54:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Several measures" (none / 0)

Go ahead.  Name them.  Explain to me exactly how he's behind in the popular vote.

Start with "nobody in Michigan voted for Obama."


by Rorgg on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:51:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he IS weak.. (none / 0)

Pretty soon the media will debunk that popular vote lie. Get this straight, Barack Obama won the popular vote too.  You don't get to exclude caucuses just because you don't like them.

Even with the electorate divided the SUSA maps on the front page have had him winning the GE for a while now.  She would have to get over 200 delegates to flip in August (yeah that'll happen) and by the time the rest of the delegates commit that number will go up to over 300.  She hasn't got nearly the leverage that some here seem to think.

She doesn't get the veep slot, she campaigns hard for Barack or she becomes a pariah.  Those are the options.  


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:32:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

BIg difference (2.00 / 2)

JFK approached LBJ -- LBJ didn't all but threaten his way onto the ticket.

Yes, yes - scuttlebutt is that JFK didn't think LBJ would accept, but it doesn't change the fact that what we have here is NOT analogous to 1960.

"Sound political decisions" cannot be made at bayonet point.

It's absolutely critical, if an Obama/Clinton is to happen, that it be Obama's choice.  The simple fact of the matter is that it's going to take roughly 20-25-30 million MORE voters than even participated in the Democratic nominating process to put a Democrat in office.

They don't give two shits about our intra-party squabbles - they'll simply look at the top of the ticket and make their decision.

By going about this the way she is - Hillary Clinton is weakening Obama, making him look as if -- as you say -- he "needs her".

That's a recipe for disaster for the ticket, whether Clinton is on it or not.

This isn't about disliking Hillary Clinton nor is it about her being a woman.

It's about her needing to accept the fact that he WON the nominating contest - she doesn't need to kiss the ring, but she damn sure needs to show a shitload more humility than she has in the last 24 hours.

If she DOES want to be on the ticket, she's doing an utterly awful job of showing it.


by zonk on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:51:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BIg difference (2.00 / 1)

Showing humility??? That's sexist! I demand that Hillary show nothing but arrogance and stubbornness. That's what we need in a president.

Oh, wait. Maybe not.
"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:07:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)

I think putting Clinton on the ticket might be a net plus.  As others have said, it will help smooth things over and unify the party, but at the same time, it would make him look weak for caving into her demands.

However, I don't think he needs her.  I'm pretty sure he can beat McCain even if 10% of Hillary supporters switch sides or sit this one out.  I don't think it will happen, but Hillaryland sounds very bitter today.  I hope things are different in a few months.  You'd have to be an incredibly stupid, vindictive person to vote for McCain, just to spite Obama.

And looking beyond just the election in November, do we really want our VP fighting and bickering with our Pres for the next four years?  I just don't think having three people in the White House who think they are in charge is a good idea.  Hillary would be better used as Senate Majority leader, Governor or maybe even a Supreme Court justice.


Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.
by Dirk Diggler on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:07:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Taunting" (none / 0)

PoliticsMatters,

With all due respect, you are being remarkably thin skinned in your perception of the current state of things.  He just won and became the presumptive nominee.  He no longer needs be defined by her words, if he ever did.  They both know this; they are both doing what the must right now.

Please see my thread:

Clinton keeps base together & sets up firewall, as her first VP duties for Obama.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/6/4/71259 /99898

Liame


by Liame on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:47:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)

Alienating Independants. Even if it's true which I very much doubt so what. Independants don't or shouldn't decide who the Democratic nominee is or at least that's the view of the many democrats who support her.


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:16:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)

Well, it's too bad, because it is the group that would be the argument settler in the election this year OR in 2012.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:24:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Independents" (none / 0)

I believe recent polls have shown her performing more favorably in this category, especially in the necessary swing counties of swing states.


by Liame on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:50:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Independents" (none / 0)

I'd like to see what those polls look like after she's been contesting the primary season for two months after the general election has been held.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:04:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Independents" (none / 0)

After the GE has begun, rather.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:04:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How could she possibly be alienating independents? (none / 0)

I can understand, but disagree with, your claim that she's alienating Democrats, because they are concerned about both the short and long-term future of the Democratic Party.

But why do independents care if the Democrats keep going at it a few weeks longer?  It isn't their party.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:12:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (2.00 / 1)

You are wrong. He doesn't need her on the ticket particularly since her people have shown no message discipline and an inability to not step on Obama's message. You can't have someone like that on your campaign and governing team.

I know a lot of Clinton supporters, mostly women over 50, and only one has ever said she might not vote for him. All the rest care about policy too much, and, I'm sure the other would also vote for Obama, too.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:11:17 AM EST

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)

Unfortunately that's not what a lot of the exit polling says. I'm a strong Hillary supporter and I'm going to vote for Obama but it's clear that a lot of passions have been roused, if you don't believe me you haven't been reading this site for long. He simply cannot go into this election with the party divided after a very narrow win. You may think he can, I don't.


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:19:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

HER people 'have shown no message discipline' (none / 0)

Not Obama's?

Did I hear you right?


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:20:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)

A lot of her exit polling includes Republican voters crossing over to vote in the primary that is still being contested.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:30:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)

exit polls taken now during the heat of this crazy nomination should be taken with few grains of salt.  if, by aug, we still have such large percentages saying mccain if not clinton, then it'll be a problem.  

until then, i say stuff it with this "he needs her voters" crap.  Her voters NEED a democratic president, peroid.


by pholkhero on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:41:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "He doesn't need her" (2.00 / 1)

I believe it is more serious than that.  Her being in the race has kept "gut" voters identifying with the Democrats, especially if they still believe she may be able to mitigate his perceived apathy to them through a joint ticket.  If and when that hope is lost, I believe the polls may show a much higher defection rate than previously observed.

Voters would rather not vote for a Republican at this point, but McCain passes the "gut" check and is just enough of a repudiation of the current administration to allow that swing.


by Liame on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:59:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "He doesn't need her" (none / 0)

John Edwards has the same sort of gut voter instinct. After this long primary battle, he doesn't seem quite so bad to people, it seems. And it also seems that his base and Obama's base flow together quite nicely.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:02:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (1.00 / 2)

I know tons of people (Democrats) mostly older, but men and women, who have said they won't vote for him.  Most of the men will vote for McCain and these are men who have voted D since at least 1992...and almost all the women are just not voting.  Isn't anecdotal stuff great?

Also, when she was running against him, why in the world would she be expected to not "step on his message"?  She had her own message...but I guess the little woman needed to always walk a few steps behind the big man...even when running against him.

You boys are worse than your fathers.


by emmasaint on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:15:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (2.00 / 2)

I'm not a boy. I'm a 50 year old white woman.
And cut the gender victim crap. It's absurd to reduce this to her being a woman.

She wasn't running against him last night - She had already lost the nomination - and that's when the runner-up is expected to be gracious. My 10 year old does that at the end of soccer games when his team loses.  T


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:19:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (1.00 / 0)

If the best she can do is break even (which she didn't do that well) with the Clinton name.  Among Democrats, and in a primary election with a gender base that skews in her favor.  Then she is going to be worthless in the general election against the rest of the voting population.

The only argument she has is her rabid supporters are so bitter, and destructive they won't vote for a ticket she isn't on.  And I doubt the number of morons that think that way is big enough to make a difference.  The racist voters arn't going to change their mind regarless who is in the VP spot, and alot of the other groups she did well with are going to go either to the Democrat, or John McCain regardless of who is VP.  She cannot deliver the groups she has recently claimed as her base, top of the ticket, or  bottom of the ticket.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:14:28 AM EST

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (2.00 / 1)

So all the strong Hillary supporters are morons. I see.


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:20:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (2.00 / 0)

If they are talking about voting for McCain, or any other attempt to throw the election they certainly are.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:32:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The nomination is over (none / 0)

and yet you spew your divisive crap in here about Hillary and her supporters.  I wonder if you are really not just trying to disrupt the Democratic Party, by sowing the seeds of division.  Who are you going to call racist now that Hillary is out of the contest?  

LOL,  the anti-Hillary trolls are going to miss Hillary more than her supporters!  


Hillary/Obama 2008
by Sandy1938 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:24:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The nomination is over (none / 0)

I never called Hillary a racist.

And where am I sowing the seeds of division?

By saying that the people that said race was a motivating factor in their vote, then casting a vote for Hillary would not be people she could carry over to the general election by being in the VP spot?  At what point would that statement be in question?  If people were racist enough to say they were not voting for a black man in the Democratic primary, then I think Hillary being on the VP spot would not suddenly make them color blind.

Likewise any group of people that voted for Obama as an anti-Hillary vote I would say would not carry over in the General Election if he was VP and she was at the top of the ticket.

She has been claiming victory in Demographics that Democrats tend to lose in the Primary Election.  I am not sure that her as VP is going to  reverse that trend more than anyone else as VP, in a general election against John McCain.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:40:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The nomination is over (none / 0)

how disingenious and hypocritical to write such crap  in a diary titled "He needs her more than she needs him."


by pholkhero on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:43:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Worthless in the general election" (none / 0)

Did you learn nothing from Karl Rove; he may be nefarious, but he is a political genius?


by Liame on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:04:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Worthless in the general election" (none / 0)

I do not pay attention to Karl Rove, even when Hillary Clinton chose to cite him.   But did you have a point?  Or was this NOT snark, and you really think I have something I should learn from Karl Rove. Since apparently Clinton supporters find him favorable to their candidate.  To that I can only answer: NO


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:09:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Worthless in the general election" (none / 0)

Secure the base ... secure the base.


by Liame on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:31:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)

In honor of all great Obama bloggers..

Site?

Link?

Evidence?

For your crazy assertions....


by emmasaint on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:16:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)

Which assertion would be crazy?

That the Majority of voters in the Democratic primary are a gender base that skews in her favor?
AKA more women voted in the Democratic Primary than men.  Is that really in question?

That racist voters are not going to change their mind because she is the VP?  Again is this in question?

Or that group she has claimed as her base are not groups that Democrats tend to carry?  AKA Poor White Men who trend Republican (in every election except with Bill Clinton, and Hillary is not Bill Clinton, and there is no evidence even Bill Clinton could win that group over as VP.) are not going to suddenly switch to Democrat because HIllary is VP.

Why don't you try to disprove what I say.  Site/Link/Evidence is welcome, but I would settle for Logic.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:05:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:14:38 AM EST

Re: When she says... (2.00 / 1)

that John McCain and she are both ready to be President on Day 1 due to their experience, and BO is not, you cannot put this person on your ticket.

When Bill Clinton doesn't know how to get out of the spotlight, you can't have him connected to your administration.

When all is said and done, most HRC supporters will swing Barrack's way.  This polling isn't that unusual - that people say they won't support the nominee.  Watch what happens once emotions simmer down.


Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
by passionateprogressive on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:17:36 AM EST

Re: When she says... (2.00 / 2)

Yep this pretty much sums up why she cant be VP. If she had stuck to her and Obamas differences without dragging in McCain to compare herself too  . yup . . done deal.

I like Hillary Clinton but she should not be VP at this point.


by John a Va Dem on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:21:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When she says... (none / 0)

She can't be veep because she compares herself to McCain. Even if true it hardly sounds like a compelling reason.  


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:25:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She can't be veep because the healthcare industry (none / 0)

paid for this election.. and they dont want her anwhere near those laws and politicians they bought fair and square.


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:36:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She can't be veep because the healthcare indus (none / 0)

No evidence, no truth.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:38:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She's eliminated her chances of being VP (2.00 / 1)

In order for Hillary to be VP, she would have had to had that conversation with Obama entirely in private. Now, if he put her on the ticket it will appear he's being forced into it and that's something he can't do. So congrat Hillary. You ruled yourself out.

In addition, if it was never clear before, last night's Clinton victory speech, with it's "me me me" defiant tone, on the night we have a nominee, pretty much made it clear that Hillary as VP would not be on message, nor able to play second fiddle to Obama.


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:27:03 AM EST

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

Actually it would be a sign of strength and self confidence. Some one here yesterday was making the argument that he was going to be Lincolnian and include the strongest people in his cabinet. Lincoln for the record had two of his presidential opponents in the cabinet. This whole weakness argument is really total bs what will matter is political realities.


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:30:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (2.00 / 1)

He'll have her on his cabinet, same as he'll probably have Biden and Edwards and Richardson as well.

He'll just not have her as a VP.


by Aris Katsaris on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:34:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

He will NOT have her on his cabinet.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:37:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

I think he should put her in charge of health care, just like Bill did. Hopefully this time she won't blow it.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:39:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

What's gonna be fun is that she'll have to justify putting that on the backburner for another four years if McCain is in office. What, it's crucially important, but you won't go after it even with a veto-proof Democratic majority?


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:45:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

Guys get real. She's not going in any cabinet, accepting any healthcare czar spot or any other of these fantasies. She's never going to give up her NY senate seat which is her power base. The very worst that can happen to her is that she remains a very powerful member of the senate and a leader othe party. She essentially got the same vote as he did in the primaries for godsake. The very worst that can happen to him is he loses the general election.    


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:44:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

Leader of the party? Reeeeally? Say, isn't that the same party that she just made look like assholes for coming together behind the candidate yesterday with the understanding that she would step back?


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What's lost in this argument (none / 0)

is that Lincoln didn't make one of his enemies VP. He had them in the cabinet. Something else may be in store for Hillary, but she'll never be VP.


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:49:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

"So congrat Hillary. You ruled yourself out."

The more I see what she does the more I start believing that she doesn't really want the VP position, she merely wants an excuse to keep her diehard supporters resentful at Obama, so at to maximize his chances of defeat at November.

She's not in VP mode, she's merely in full sabotage mode. Ask for the VP position while simultaneously making it utterly impossible for Obama to offer it to her: what better way to keep the resentments alive?


by Aris Katsaris on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:33:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

Heh. He could do the same thing she did to him. Publicly declare that he would be willing to consider taking her on as VP.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:36:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He's already said that, (none / 0)

but it's more formality than reality.

Now, what she may have done, is force him into a VP decision sooner than he'd like, or at the least into publicly ruling her out. I suspect though that unless she starts to beg more and more, that he'll just pick a VP in his own time sometime this summer, but it won't be her.


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:51:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

How naughty of her. I actually think she would like the veep spot, it's in his interests and those of the party to give it to her so why not take the obvious course. Because some Clinton haters in his own camp don't like it.  


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:40:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

What's in his interests and that of the party is a matter of opinion.

And if that was the point, she could have made the offer and her argument (about how it's in Obama's own interests) in private.

The only reason she's making the pressure public is to harm Obama and the party -- it's certainly not benefitting her or anyone else in any other way.


by Aris Katsaris on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

At this point, he's going to just have to continue what he's been doing. Name someone else as veep and let her burn. She's committed to Denver now, so she'll just have to look delusional instead of tenacious. It might ruin his chances, but what else can he do?


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:34:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

She's not going to "burn." She's just going to return to the senate and await events. One of which might be him not getting elected. You folks are way too emotional about all this. I suspect he's going to swayed much more by electoral calculations than emotion.


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:37:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (2.00 / 2)

She's not "going to Denver". She won't have the superdelegate support.

She'll concede within a week, but she lost a moment to be graceful and bring the party together. I used to think that she'd work hard this summer to help us win in November. I no longer am convinced of that.


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:54:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

I expect several more dozen superds for Obama today, maybe tomorrow.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:59:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

Have you not paid attention during the campaign? She forcefully hurled away every single opportunity she had to be graceful. One day she would make very nice statements about Obama, then the next day she'd say something that was even more insulting than she'd already been. This is just the argument settler. The proof that it was never about continuing the debate until it played itself out, it was about her. It was always about her.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:00:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's eliminated her chances of being VP (none / 0)

Largely because you're consumed with hate for her as many of your posting demonstrate. She clearly wants the Veep spot. It's in his gift. He can make a prudent political decision or he can go it alone in which case she retires to the senate and awaits events. In reality the one who is probably going to be under pressure from the party panjandrums is him because they can see the train wreck this could possible become. Unlike many here.  


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:05:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My guess (2.00 / 3)

The VP could have been hers. Three simple steps would have made it  almost inevitable.

1) Been gracious in defeat and acknowledged that Obama had won.

2) She should never have mentioned that she was open to it.

3) Killed the petition. Putting a gun to some ones head is never a way to gain a trusted ally

Once again, I think bad advice and the wrong message lost her something that could have been hers if she wanted it.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:27:59 AM EST

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (2.00 / 2)

Exactly. Plus, they're already running commercials featuring her endorsement of McCain.

Face it: She went all-in on a draw, and didn't hit it. Now, neither the presidency nor the VP slot will be hers. The biggest irony is that she's weakened herself for any future bids too. Now that Richardson and many other Clinton loyalists have defied them and lived to tell the tale, the iron grip they have had over the Democratic establishment is over.

Obama is already gathering up her logical supporters who care about progressive issues and fancy themselves true Democrats. Everybody else currently supporting Hillary wouldn't vote for him if their life depended on it.

Fortunately, the vast majority of us aren't children who have to be coddled to support progressive issues we claim to ALREADY support.


by Reeves on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:44:24 AM EST

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)

I mojo'd you for the poker references.


by applejackking on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:14:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: She polls terribly in match-ups (none / 0)

All the polling I've seen shows her brining a 3% drag on his ticket, as opposed to a 12% bump from Edwards--in the Appalachians no less.  This is what we call "brining negatives"  to the ticket.

Add in her campaign debt, no small albatross, and Bill, and I don't see how he could add her in and expect to win.


by steampunkx on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:46:37 AM EST

Re: Reality: She polls terribly in match-ups (2.00 / 1)

Yup. John Edwards has shown in polling to be an asset in EVERY SINGLE STATE. You can chalk that up to lack of name recognition, but does that apply to EVERY DAMN STATE?


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:57:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: She polls terribly in match-ups (none / 0)

Yeah - John Edwards really brought it home in 2004!  Riight.

John Edwards is a joke in his own state of North Carolina...he is corner joke - his $400 haircut, his basketball court in his house...his own neighbor hates him....


by emmasaint on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:20:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: She polls terribly in match-ups (none / 0)

He's just secured the nomination by the narrowest of margins. To hear you talk you'd think he'd won by a landslide. Get real. She's a big potential problem unless he brings her into the tent. Remembers LBJ's dictum about p........ in and p....... out of the tent!  


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:08:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: She polls terribly in match-ups (none / 0)

I'm not sure I'm clear on your point.  You say it's the narrowest of margins, and argue that the person who creates drag is therefore helpful.  I don't understand.

I also don't know LBJ's dictum, and kind of don't want to, but I do know that Kennedy made LBJ his VP in order to neuter his power in the Senate.


by steampunkx on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 01:03:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)

Well, I am assuming that angry Hillary supporters (why they are so angry makes no sense, she lost fair and square) aren't lying to pollsters, and yet he is still winning the GE.

It would be easier if some Hillary supporters were not obstructing Democratic victory, but it seems that most Hillary democrats are still democrats first and obstructionists second--a good thing.

He can win with her or without her support.  Certainly, the former is preferred, but the party will not be held hostage to get there.

If she wants to be the party elder, party statesman, with a huge role int he convention, it's her choice.  If she continues obstructing, then she can be the party's pariah.  It is her choice.  She's earned the right to have a big say in what happens from here... but, she's not going to be successful holding the party hostage.  It's time to make a deal.


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:53:55 AM EST

Re: Reality: he needs her more than she needs him. (none / 0)

I do think that this vp thing is part of a 2012 strategy -- See http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/6/4/83627 /26051


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:58:14 AM EST

If Obama needs my vote this fall... (none / 0)

... then he has to give me a reason to pull the lever next to his name. Right now, it won't happen without HRC's name on the ticket.  I'll definitely be in the voting booth, voting straight-Democratic on all the down-ticket candidates (like my old bud Frank Lautenberg, here in NJ).  But if the top line on the ballot reads BO-and-nobody, it will be left untouched.

This isn't deep analysis. I gave my reasons months ago on TL, and there has been nothing to change them in the ensuing time.  It's a simple calculation, and for BO it should also be a simple matter of politics -- nothing personal.


by jginnane on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:09:28 AM EST

Re: If Obama needs my vote this fall... (none / 0)

Nothing deep about this at all. You don't care about the issues of the Democratic Party. We get that.

Maaaaaaaybe this isn't the site for you? Unless you're unclear about the "DD" part of MyDD?


by Reeves on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:19:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

DD = Dumb Drivel. n/t (none / 0)


by notxjack on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:26:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama needs my vote this fall... (2.00 / 1)

Hey, that's your decision. If you're ok with a Republican in the WH, surrounded by the likes of Phil Gramm in domestic policy and a slew of neocons in foreign policy, go right ahead.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:21:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama needs my vote this fall... (none / 0)

He's entitled to his opinion. Like many democrats who feel this way he probably figures the majorities in house and senate will keep McCain fenced in.


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:26:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama needs my vote this fall... (2.00 / 1)

Like they did with Bush?

Get real.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:28:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama needs my vote this fall... (2.00 / 1)

Thank you!

Yeah, the blue wave of 2006 sure turned things around, eh?


by Reeves on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:30:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama needs my vote this fall... (none / 0)

This isn't my position, I'll vote for him because I'm a democrat, but your position is clearly one with a widespread resonance. His supporters seems completely oblivious of the fact you're not going to win an election with a major schism in your own party. This is politics 101 but it seems to be beyond them either because they are consumed with hatred of her or have an exaggerated appreciation of what's actually happened. Putting her on the ticket seems a no brainer to me but there you go.  


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:22:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

They are in denial about the role of the MSM (none / 0)

in this.. But the mood in the MSM is already shifting. They are going into defend McCain mode now.

Obama won't be able to win without the smart people in his party.


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:05:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Then I guess... (none / 0)

you don't get to vote for a good candidate in November.

Nobody needs HRC right now other than the most deluded of her supporters.


by notxjack on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:23:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then I guess... (none / 0)

This sort of exercise in political unrealism should be framed and hung in DNC headquarters. He's just narrowly won the nomination, he's got about the same amount of the popular vote, and there are serious concerns about certain traditional dem voting blocs.

And yet this genius says:

"Nobody needs HRC right now other than the most deluded of her supporters."

 


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:29:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then I guess... (2.00 / 1)

First, there is no popular vote. There are ways of "counting" it that go in the high double digits. In other words, it's so malleable as to be valueless.

And indeed, we don't "need" Hillary, but that's only because of her. Her antics are turning off supporters prominent female supporters like Feinstein and Waters, and these same women will be more than happy to step up and represent Obama to other women on TV and across the country.

Obama's already started peeling off her support into his column in New Jersey and California. Her supers are switching. Eventually, the vast majority of her "coalition" will be behind the party.

The remnants? Not gettable, and not worth having even if they were.


by Reeves on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:34:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for finally realizing my intelligence. (none / 0)

Sorry it offended you. Though, if it makes you feel any better, I spent a good chunk of time in CT for Lamont in the primary just to see it all fall apart in the general, and I went up there after watching my hometown hero get trashed by a DLC crapgasm candidate for governor.

2% of politics is about appreciating victory, the rest is just accepting defeat.


by notxjack on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 12:35:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Something for Obama supporters to keep in mind: (2.00 / 1)

Most voters do not vote for the Vice President.  They vote for the President.  If they support Obama, they will vote for Obama, regardless of whether they like Hillary.

Do you people really think that if McCain chooses Bobby Jindal, people who love McCain but don't like Jindal are going to vote for Barack Obama?

How many Bush voters picked him for the sole and specific reason that they love Dick Cheney?  Conversely, how many Gore or Kerry voters only chose Gore or Kerry because they refused to vote for Bush with Cheney on the ticket?


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:21:29 AM EST

Re: Something for Obama (none / 0)

You're misreading the situation. This is about a schism in HIS OWN PARTY.


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:23:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

whose reality? (2.00 / 1)

Sorry to add discord to this conversation but the problem with Hillary is that she is a selfish narcissist who continues to show a lack of savoir faire when it comes to our new presumptive nominee.

What was the point of revealing that she would be open to being the veep yesterday when everyone was quite aware that Barack was to clinch the nomination? At least have the class to concede first.

As if she was even asked in the first place, which she wasn't. And hopefully he will not explore that option. She never fails to ignore the high road.


"Beauty, more than bitterness, makes the heart break." Sara Teasdale
by april34fff on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:24:28 AM EST

Obama seems far more narcissistic than HRC (none / 0)

For example, hating the weak is a common characteristic of narcissists.. not caring about poor people, wanting to excise people who disagree with you immediately like a cancer from your life, pretending you don't see facts that disagree with your narcissist reality, seeing everything as black and white, all narcissist traits, all Obama.


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:18:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Also, Obama had that extremely stressful period (none / 0)

around age six that seems to kick people over into narcissism. His mother and his father were divorcing.. he had other wives in Kenya, etc. then came back to the US and Obama knew that he had found another girlfriend here.. (not his mother) He was an alcoholic.. etc. (Not your average Muslim) Obama Jr. must have been in utter turmoil about what he knew and especially, what he didn't know.

Bush had Bush Senior (head of the CIA at some point?) and the death of his sister.. who the family was forbidden to even speak about.. Father and mother went golfing the day after sisters death..

See how it works?


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:24:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: whose reality? (none / 0)

Why choose the high road, when you can get down in the dirt road with the pigs. This woman does not have the ability to concede. Remember this a woman who probably to this day still says Bill didn't cheat on her. I love the way she congraulated Obama on running a nice campaign, not winning mind you. What gall, I think the people of the Jewish persuasion call it "Chutzpah" but it's not becoming on her. Not when she's covered in dirt.


John McCain: Everyones nowhere man
by johnny sexton on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 04:22:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perspective (none / 0)

I have never seen a group of grown-ups more scared of someone, Clinton, the Democrats would have fiercely supported, had Obama not run.  It is humorous and sad.

In that same respect, most of us would have given our right arm to have McCain instead of Bush these last two Presidential cycles.  We should all get some perspective.


by Liame on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:25:13 AM EST

Re: Perspective (none / 0)

Scared? Please. I care about the Democratic party issues, so I would fiercely support our nominee, even if it was Hillary. But she is - make no bones about it - currently undermining our nominee, and it's inexcusable and insulting.

As for McCain over Bush...I would prefer McCain slightly, but now that Bush has preceded him and he is forced into continuing his policies to get the nomination, no thanks.


by Reeves on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:29:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

McCain has a healthy daughter.. (none / 0)

who has a blog and clearly, is a smart girl, with a normal outlook on life (she is not an alcoholic, she has a brain and a conscience)

That speaks well for McCain not being a narcissist on too extreme a level.. he is probably like Obama, the child of a narcissist with serious narcissistic tendencies, but not really cruel, just oblivious. (or else how could McCain be a Republican?)

I personally had a narcissist parent, but she was the child and sister of two really terrible - MUCH worse than my mother, narcissists. She loved me as best as she could. In retrospect, I realize that it could have been FAR worse.. I had a fairly normal childhood up until around age 9-10. (when I started to question her judgement.)

In that context, I think she did okay.. Narcissists spoil everything they touch.
You can't live with one and not be scarred.


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:31:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

2012 (